[Buddha-l] Re: liturgical languages] (Richard P. Hayes)

[zelders.YH]

At 08:00 PM 5/5/2005, you wrote:

>Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 10:29:53 -0600
>From: "Richard P. Hayes" <rhayes at unm.edu>
>Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] liturgical languages]
>To: Buddhist discussion forum <buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com>
>Message-ID: <1115310593.4897.22.camel at localhost.localdomain>
>Content-Type: text/plain
>
>On Wed, 2005-05-04 at 13:46 +0100, Mike Austin wrote:
>
> > In message <1114795635.9539.17.camel at localhost.localdomain>, Richard P.
> > Hayes <rhayes at unm.edu> writes
> >
> > >Chanting by Theravadin monks can also be decidedly unmelodious, even
> > >cacophonous. It depends on how much the monks adhere to the Buddha's
> > >advice not to make beautiful sounds lest it distract from the meaning of
> > >the words.
> >
> > Can you give the reference for this?
>
>It occurs in the Vinaya-pi.taka. When I have time, I'll track down the
>exact reference and provide it to everyone, unless one of our regulars
>who knows the Pali canon very well beats me to it.
>
>Re: liturgical languages] (Richard P. Hayes)


L.S.
I think this could be the passage that Richard has in mind.
Herman Zelders

from the Vinaya-Pitaka : Cullavagga, V:3, (translated by I.B. Horner) :
"Now at that time the group of six monks sang dhamma with a long-drawn 
plain-song sound.
People 
 spread it about, saying : "Even as we sing, so do  these recluses, 
sons of the Sakyans sing dhamma with a long-drawn plain-song sound."
Those who were modest monks looked down upon, criticised, spread it about, 
saying : "How can this group of six monks sing dhamma with a long-drawn 
plain-song sound ?"
Then these monks told this matter to the Lord. He said : "Is it true, as is 
said 
?"  "It is true, Lord."
Having given reasoned talk, he addressed the monks, saying : "Monks, there 
are these five disadvantages to one singing dhamma with a long-drawn 
plain-song sound : he is pleased with himself in regard to that sound, and 
others are pleased in regard to that sound, and housepeople look down upon, 
and while he is himself striving after accuracy in the sound there is an 
interruption in his concentration, and people coming after fall into the 
way of (wrong) views *. These, monks, are the five disadvantages to one 
singing dhamma with a long-drawn plain-song sound. Monks, dhamma should not 
be sung with a long-drawn plain-song sound. Whoever should (so) sing it, 
there is an offence of wrong-doing."
Now at that time monks were doubtful about intoning. They told this matter 
to the Lord. He said : "Monks, I allow intoning."

* note : VA.2002 says the people who will come after will say "our teachers 
and preceptors sang it thus", and they will sing it in the same way."

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