[Buddha-l] Re: Rational or mythological Buddhism and WesternBuddhist lay practice

[Mike Austin]

In message <1112064022.5431.32.camel at localhost.localdomain>, Richard P. 
Hayes <rhayes at unm.edu> writes
>On Tue, 2005-03-29 at 00:44 +0200, Mikael Aktor wrote:
>
>> Even without a very thorough knowledge of Vinaya texts, is seems logical
>> that attaining nirvana must rest on transcending the attachments created
>> by - among other things - a sexual life.
>
>That is completely illogical. Nirvana IS the extinction of desires, so
>it cannot possibly depend on it. Giving up desires is not a precondition
>of attaining nirvana. Rather, it is a description of what has happened
>in the attainment of nirvana. What is necessary to attain the abandoning
>of desires is simply knowing that desires, when fulfilled, leave one's
>craving unfulfilled.

Achieving the extinction of desire may require some practice. That seems 
to me what the path is about.  One cultivates dispassion and detachment. 
Is that not a giving up of desire? Nirvana is the extinction of desires, 
but the path is the extinguishing of them.  It is the difference between 
the 'having achieved' and the 'achieving', is it not?

I think that,  "simply knowing that desires, when fulfilled, leave one's 
craving unfulfilled" may well be necessary, but it is not sufficient. It 
is my experience that I know the outcome, but I still practice the folly 
that causes it. It is because my 'knowledge' is not continuous. At times 
I 'know', but at other times under the influence of desire, I reject the 
knowledge. Knowledge is still there. Lack of application is the problem.


>It could be argued (and probably would be argued by
>many psychologists today) that indulging in one's desires and studying
>the consequences of doing so is far more effective in abandoning the
>habit of fulfilling desires than simply abstaining from something
>because someone else says it is a good idea.

If one already understands what the consequences of desires are, then it 
would be pointless to pursue them. Should one suggest to oneself, "Oh, I 
am still ignorant of the dangers here, so I should indulge a bit more to 
find out", he would be foolish.  He may as well play with nitroglycerine 
because he only knows about fireworks.

-- 
Metta
Mike Austin