[Buddha-l] Re: Rational or mythological Buddhism and WesternBuddhist lay practice

[Stuart Lachs]

Richard Hayes wrote:

Yes, I actually mean that these rules have nothing to do with desire.
> They have everything to do with avoiding social disapproval, and also of
> setting a decorous example to the laity. It was to avoid social
> disapproval that the monastic code had rules against monks laughing
> boisterously in the company of the laity or using coarse language. When
> monks were in the company only of other monks, however, laughter was not
> against the rules. No one thought laughter was itself an obstacle to
> spiritual attainment.

Avoiding social diapproval and gaining social approval is a big part of
monk's training to the present times. Monks are instructed how to stand, how
to talk, how to  hold their hands, how to even relax (at least in public),
how to give a talk that sounds like a Rinzai monk say, as opposed to a Soto
monk and so on. These prescriptions are all meant to make the sangha
acceptable to the laity, but also, to make them separate and visibly
different from the laity. The laity may talk loudly and laugh loudly, but
not monks (at least in public), the same goes for how a monk carries
oneself. They should stand in a "respectful and dignified" way.
My guess is one reason masturbation is less an offense then say "humping a
hollow in a tree" is that it is done in private. Does anyone know the rule
on public masterbation?

Stuart

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard P. Hayes" <rhayes at unm.edu>
To: "Buddhist discussion forum" <buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com>
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 2:27 PM
Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Rational or mythological Buddhism and
WesternBuddhist lay practice


> On Sat, 2005-03-26 at 08:15 +0100, Mikael Aktor wrote:
>
> > Wouldn't it be a much simpler (and more straightforward) answer to say
> > that sexual abstinence is demanded because monks are supposed to conquer
> > the desire for sex? Or do you actually mean that these rules have
> > nothing to do with desire?
>
> Yes, I actually mean that these rules have nothing to do with desire.
> They have everything to do with avoiding social disapproval, and also of
> setting a decorous example to the laity. It was to avoid social
> disapproval that the monastic code had rules against monks laughing
> boisterously in the company of the laity or using coarse language. When
> monks were in the company only of other monks, however, laughter was not
> against the rules. No one thought laughter was itself an obstacle to
> spiritual attainment.
>
> As I mentioned in another message, a monk or nun could be kicked out of
> the order for a lifetime if guilty of having sexual relations with
> another being. Being guilty of masturbation, however, was much less
> serious, because society did not disapprove of that quite as much as
> they disapproved of religious mendicants doing "unseemly" actions with
> human beings, corpses, animals and trees. If the purpose of the rules
> had been to avoid the gratification of sexual desire as such, then ALL
> forms of sexual gratification would be seen as equally destructive of
> the yogin's resolve.
>
> Moreover, as has been pointed out before in this thread, there are
> plenty of instances where laity are attained to the status of ariya-
> puriso and attained refined states of jhaana, which shows that celibacy
> was not seen as necessary to make significant spiritual progress. So
> celibacy, we can conclude, was seen as desirable not because marriage or
> sexuality was seen as inherently obstructive to spiritual progress, but
> because society withheld approval of sexually active people who sought
> alms as a religious practice.
>
> There are inconsistencies in monastic rules, and most of them can be
> traced, I think, to inconsistencies in popular conceptions of what is
> acceptable in "polite" society.
>
> -- 
> Richard Hayes
> Department of Philosophy
> University of New Mexico
> _______________________________________________
> buddha-l mailing list
> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com
> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l